An Argument with a Fool

Generally, I follow the adage of “don’t argue with a fool, they will only bring you down to their level,” but some instances just speak to me, and this was one of them.  Below, I have copied/pasted an entire Facebook thread that occurred on a friends page.  Any comments I’ve added to this document that were not in the original thread are in italics, and I’ve deleted the last names for privacy. All typos from my “opponent” (an English teacher) have been preserved. Ironically, I play the part of Dann in this discussion.

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Seth (July 31, 2011) ‎“if you cannot stand behind our troops, please feel free to stand in front of them”

Dee Jay hell yaeh brother

Tom N Leah Love this!!!

Samantha I fully agree!

Polly I don’t think there is anyone who does not stand behind the troops, but there are many who do not stand behind wars that we don’t belong in. There is a huge difference!

Christopher By in front I assume you mean front lines, as the right to not stand behind the troops is the right those troops defend.

Jeremy Hooah!!!

Christopher (as opposed to the idea that standing in front of those troops implies standing in front of them as though standing in front of a firing line) Tamara Fully standing behind my soldier and cheering him on!

Dann Polly, it must be wonderful to be able to make that distinction.

Polly Wonderful? I would call it logical, not wonderful, as opposed to emotional.

Polly If through your emotions, you’re trying to imply that I don’t care about Seth, who was a wonderful student, or any other soldier fighting and dying because the leaders of our country thing American lives are more valuable than “them,” whoever “they” are, you’d be quite misguided. You really don’t want to go there with me, trust me.

Polly “think,” not “thing.”

Actually, I truely do… let’s get this discussion started! 

Dann Polly, in declaring that “we dont belong” in the current actions, you present yourself as an authority on the subject, so please tell me all about it. Why we’re there, what our goals are. To not stand behind those who do our bidding is an act of a coward. To “not stand behind” the wars is to not stand behind those who are acting in it on your behalf. You can disagree all you want, but you and your countrymen, and those that you have appointed to make decisions for you in such circumstances, have asked your military members to accomplish a task. If you disagree with the requested task, you must act with your ballot… provided you are truly aware of why the task is being undertaken.

Polly My original comment was to Seth, not you. I owe you nothing. I have studied the Middle East for 4 years. Lived in Egypt for 6 months, traveled to Israel and Palestine. You have done nothing but follow orders like a brainwashed fool. Th…at’s pretty easy to do. Remember, there were NO weapons of mass destruction and there was no link to el queida, yet more than 100,000 innocent civilians have died in Iraq. 3000 died in 9/11. American lives seem to have great value, while the lives of those in Iraq do not. If you think going into Iraq was justified, you’re simply a brainwashed fool. Our country has never been more unsafe than it is now as a result of these wars, and we now have the greatest debt ever and a bankrupt economy. Imagine if those trillions of dollars had been used in America. I did not seek you out here; you sought me out, sticking your nose in where it didn’t belong. You’re representing your country, right? I’d end this here like a real man. Don’t assume that only YOU know anything about world politics just bevcause you’re a man, and I’m a woman or because you’re in the army, and I’m an English teacher, though you didn’t know that before this post, so you just ASSumed that YOU know it all.

Lady, I never claimed you owe me anything nor did I assume that I know more than you… I just read what you wrote and was flabbergasted, and that feeling of shocking disbelief at your posted stupidity just makes me want to retort further.  If you automatically assume that this argument has anything at all to do with gender or occupation, as your post makes me think, than you are even more foolish than I initially thought.  When you post nonsense in a public forum, it’s precisely that.. public, and subject to comment.  If your statement was intended to be private, there’s a feature for that on Facebook.  Anyway, back to the discussion. 

Dann Lol, I beg to differ on the direction of the “brainwashed fool” comment. Huffing ton Post = bad!

Sorry this occurred on your page Seth…  

Polly It occurred because you’re an arrogant fool, so why say you’re sorry now, and you ARE a brainwashed fool.  

Polly, you have never met me, and this is our very first interaction.  Are you sure you’ve enough information to determine my level of ignorance or foolishness?  I doubt it.   

Polly YOu had to resort to nonsense because the facts blew you’re bullshit out the door. Thanks for proving my point that you’re a brainwashed idiot.  

Seth Dann- no need to apologize. I’m glad to see you are making friends hahaha.

Polly- If I know you at all, this will spark some kind of discussion in at least one of your classes on Monday. I’m kinda glad I could be the indirect provider of entertainment for you and your students.  

Polly No school for another two weeks…..:) Of course, world polticisw is a vaforite topic…..:) Be safe, Seth. YOu know I’ve always been in your corner, through the good and the bad„,:L)   

Dann I hope the “facts” are straightened out by the time school starts. While your number of 100,000 may be accurate, the VAST majority of the civilian deaths (I’d venture a guess of 90%) was because the Shia and Sunni’s were killing each other…. We started a power shift, deposing the oppressive minority and empowering the majority to have a representative government (I only wish we could have) the same in the US). It’s absolutely not the case that american lives are more or less valuable than others, but our way of life is… and there are hundreds of thousands of people that are willing to help others enjoy the same liberty we enjoy. While I cannot argue that you visited several places, i am sure you have… it’s clear from your substantially misguided “facts” that you did little beyond sightseeing while there. I had no retort because I was busy, no other reason. We can have a battle of wits for as long as you’d like… but you’ve made it clear that you haven’t loaded your weapon for this fight. “Facts” are generally true. Do a little light reading on a subject, learn a bit about it, and then present actual facts, instead of what you heard on CNN or from some PAC. While I am at times arrogant, and on many topics I am indeed a fool, this one I know about. You are 100% wrong, and have no business attempting to spout “facts” on this topic, as it only causes others to have to dispel the rumors you perpetuate. This is my final post regarding this… not because I fear your misguided facts, or because I feel you may make me look bad (not possible, you’re a fool), but because Seth doesn’t need this nonsense continuing on his “page”.

Dann http://civilliberty.about.​com/od/internationalhumanr​ights/p/saddam_hussein.htm

The link is to a page that gives a very brief overview of the War Crimes of Saddam Hussein, with little specific detail.

 I intended that to be my last post… and then I saw these 4 posts, which “popped up” for me at the same time (when I woke in the morning).

Polly  YOU ARE A COMPLETE IDIOT, WHO EITHER BELIEVES YOUR OWN LIES OR IS TRYING TO CONVINCE ANYONE READING YOUR POST TO BELIEVE THEM. OUR WAY OF LIFE IS MORE VALUABLE???? YOU ARE DISGUSTING….THAT’S THE SAME AS SAYING AMERICAN LIVES ARE MORE VALU…ABLE. I DID MUCH MORE THAN SIGHT SEE. I READ FAR MORE THAN “LIGHT READING, ASSHOL. i’M AN ENGLISH TEACHER, NOT A BUSINESS MAJOR, AND I’VE SEEN MUCH MORE OF THE WORLD THAN THE MIDDLE EAST..ALL YOU DID WAS GO AND KILL PEOPLE, SO STOP ASSUMING THINGS OUT OF YOUR UTTER ARROGANCE AND STUPIDITY. LUCKILY, I GET TO TEACH CHILDREN THE TRUTH. SWALLOW THAT ONE MORON. ARUGING WITH YOU IS TO ARGUE WITH AN UNARMED MAN BECAUSE ALL YOU KNOW IS WHAT YOUR SUPERIOR TELLS YOU. I’M SURE YOUR DEGREE IN BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION TAUGHT YOU A LOT TOO NOT. IT’S THE EASIEST DEGREE TO GET, THE FALLBACK FOR IDIOTS LIKE YOU. IT MAKES ME SICK TO THINK MY TAX DOLLARS SUPPORT AN ASSHOLE LIKE YOU, YOI ACTUALLY THINK THAT ONLY YOU KNOW THE “TRUTH.” i CAN HEAR YOU SAYING “AMERICA IS NO,. 1 AND PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN LIKE A BRAINWASHED FOOL WHO’S SEEN NOTHING MORE OF THE WORLD THAN WHAT YOU SEE ON DUTY. AS FAR AS I KNOW, ONE OF THE BASIC FREEDOMS IN AMERICA IS THE RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH. JUST BECAUSE I DON’T AGREE WITH YOUR LIMITED VIEW, DOESN’T MEAN I’N WRONG AND YOU’RE RIGHT. I’N AN INTELLECTUAL, WELL-RESPECTED, WITH AN A GENIUS IQ. I NEVER TELL PEOPLE THAT, BUT JUST TO PUT YOUR SORRY ASS IN ITS PLACE, I’LL ADMIT IT. YOU ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A GI JOE WITH A CHIP ON HIS SHOULDER WHO WILL NEVER HAVE A SUCCESSFUL RELATIONSHIP WITH WOMEN BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU CAN TELL PEOPLE WHAT TO THINK AND DO. I KNOW YOUR TYPE WELL. NOW GO FIND A WHORE IN A BAR WHO’LL PUT UP WITH YOUR SORRY ASS FOR ONE NIGHT

Yup, that shit just happened.  The English teacher just rocked “All Caps.”  A “Genius IQ”? Somehow, I’m finding that more difficult to believe with each subsequent post I read. 

In my 19+ years in the military, I’ve luckily never been required to fire a shot with the intent to kill, so I find it highly doubtful that I’ve killed anyone, unless they were sitting through a long PowerPoint presentation and impaled themselves on a sharp object as they fell asleep.

Polly AND ANYONE READING THIS WHO WANTS TO KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT THE WAR IN IRAQ SHOULD SEE THE DOCUMENTARY “IRAQ FOR SALE.” IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH PROTECTING AMERICANS. IT SIMPLY MADE THE BUSHES AND CHENEYS RICHER AND ALL THEIR FRIENDS. YOU’RE SO IGNORANT, IT’S APPALLING.

Polly REMEMBER, THE UN DID NOT AGREE TO THE WAR IN IRAQ. I HAVE FRIENDS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD WHO ARE SO DISGUSTED BY WHAT THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT DID IN IRAQ. I HAVE MANY MUSLIM FRIENDS, AND LET ME TELL YOU, THE MUSLIMS OF THE WORLD HATE THE AM…ERICAN GOVERNMENT MORE THAN EVER BECAUSE OF THIS WAR, AND BECAUSE OF THAT, WE ARE MUCH MORE UNSAFE THAN WE WERE BEFORE. WE HAVE LOST OUR CREDIBILITY IN THE WORLD, AND IN CASE YOU HAVEN’T NOTICED, THE ECONOMY IS IN DIRE STRAITS. YOU PATHETIC PIECE OF SHIT WHO THINKS AMERICANS ARE BETTER THAN PEOPLE IN THE REST OF THE WORLD. WHAT GOES AROUND, COMES AROUND. YOUR DAY WILL COME BECAUSE EVERY DOG HAS ITS DAY

Polly MORE IMPORTANTLY, THE HISTORY TEACHERS IN MY SCHOOL MAKE SURE TO TELL THE STUDENTS THE TRUTH ABOUT THE IRAQ WAR, REST ASSURED. THE REAL TRUTH, NOT YOUR MADE UP TRUTH THAT 90 PERCENT OF CIVILIAN DEATHS WERE FROM INFIGHTING. THAT IS SUCH A …COMPLETE LIE THAT NO ONE I KNOW WOULD BELIEVE IT, AND IF YOU TOLD ONE LIE, YOU ARE SIMPLY A LIAR. I COPIED YOUR POST AND SENT IT TO TEACHER FRIENDS, AND THEY THINK YOU HAVE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES. I AGREE. YOU NEED TO READ SOMETHING BESIDES WAR MANUALS

I’ve looked for hours for a military reference called “War Manual,” but was unsuccessful in that endeavor.  I’ll make sure I look into my mental health, just to be sure I am Okay.  I appreciate your concern.

Dann Caps Lock key is to your left. Would you accept such a poorly written document from your students? I should hope not.

Anyone that knows me can assure you I am not ignorant, brain washed, or a fool. You are assuming that I am an “America’s… #1” flag waver, which is absolutely not the case. I am frankly embarrassed by much of what the government does, and very jaded about a vast number of the decisions that are made. I don’t do what I do because I have an American superiority complex, I do what I do because I am good at it, and my brothers-in-arms need my help as well as that of others that are professional and competent at their jobs. I have purposely made the choice to continue my military service during this time of strife for that reason, and that reason alone. I don’t do it because I think we’re the best, nor to protect your personal, individual freedoms. I do this solely for the combat soldiers; they deserve the best support and the most competent assistance they can get. It is true that I am proud to be American, and if you are disappointed in our government and choose to solely ridicule its actions instead of actively attempting to change it, you should probably move. I’m sure that “Iraq for sale” is a cinematic masterpiece, but I’d be very hesitant to take a single persons viewpoint and push it as fact. Clearly, we differ in that regard.

I am well aware of why we “went in” to Iraq, and I agree that it was profiteering… I find no room to argue that point. The end result, however, was that a brutal regime that was committing substantial and repeated human rights violations to maintain it’s strangle hold of power on the masses was removed, and the people are more “self governed” than they have EVER been. That the nation of Islam hates us is a very incorrect statement. ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS hate America, but frankly I know more Muslim’s that are embarrassed by the fundamentalists than hate Americans. If you watch the news you can today witness, as we speak, people in Islamic nations rising up against their own oppressive governments in an effort to gain the basic human rights they are not presently afforded and to be able to freely pursue happiness.

The vast majority of civilian casualties in Iraq has been from in-fighting is fact. We do not drive bombs into markets nor do we attack people at checkpoints, and such actions are the cause of the majority of civilian death and injury. We do not go door-to-door and assassinate individuals that disagree with our opinions. The US, once the pro-Hussein military was defeated, conducted what is basically a police action, attempting to keep peace as the Shia and Sunni fought for control. America made it possible for the people of Iraq to vote for a government that is representative of the population, something which Iraq had rarely seen before. Additionally, the number of non-combatant casualties is inaccurate as it’s not possible to accurately determine who is and is not a “fighter” in Iraq, as they do not distinguish themselves by military uniforms so when someone is killed, it is at the whim of those making a report after the fact whether the person was a combatant or not. A pro-American media outlet will report it was a combatant, while an anti-American outlet would say it’s a civilian as those statements are better suited for the respective propaganda machines.

That anyone blindly follows a religion because of parental indoctrination is ludicrous to me, and fundamentalists FROM ALL RELIGIONS (Christians and Muslims very specifically, although the US is a primarily Christian nation so the vast “indiscretions” to that beliefs benefit are regularly overlooked) have been a scourge upon the earth through all of recorded history. They each have a history of oppression and human rights violations. Religion was originally a measure used by the educated and ruthless to control the peasantry and over the course of several thousand years, the idea has spread as it is an object that allows people to draw hope and explain things they cannot readily explain or understand themselves.

Stating that the American way of life is more valuable than that of oppressive traditions does not make me an idiot, nor is it the same as stating that American lives are more valuable. It is a statement that relates that I care about the basic human rights of people, all people. It is from the service of the present military member and those who have gone before us that you have the right to even make the inane statements in your posts. In the very nations you are claiming we’ve wronged, you would be imprisoned for such dissent. It is through the service of the future generations of those willing to carry the torch of freedom that this right will endure. On behalf of all service members, you’re welcome.

I truly hope that the history teachers are instructing the truth, and I believe that you would be well served to sit in on some of their lectures and get with the program. You’re spouting hippie nonsense instead of the facts. I find it highly doubtful that you have sent an accurate account of this discussion to anyone educated and the result was my ignorance, and a praising or agreement with your diatribe. I encourage them each, were they to truly receive a copy of both sides of this conversation, to contact me directly for further discussion. I would hope that they would each take the full situation into account, instead of a single and personal bias as you are displaying, and instruct “both sides of the coin.” For years in Japan, students were not taught that they started WWII in the Pacific, but that doesn’t change the fact that they did. We can argue this matter if you like as well.

It’s fine to be jaded about your government and its actions, but I reiterate that it is not possible to simultaneously support your troops and hate what they are doing. It IS possible to disagree with the motives of your government and still support the personnel being sent into harm’s way because of the political agenda. Generally, people are enticed into military service with the promise of college education benefits during and upon completion of their service. They do NOT usually join due to a hateful or “America’s the best” methodology, and to assume that service members join for these reasons or are happy to carry out such duties is a display of pure ignorance. We have volunteered to do the bidding of the American people, whether we agree or not. Please don’t assume that each service member is in agreement with the agenda of the government, but rest assured that we are willing to do what is asked of us, as we’ve sworn to do. To be completely against something is to dislike it entirely, but to disagree still leaves room to support the individuals that are “stuck” with the unpleasant duties that the action may entail

Polly I am not even going to read your ignorant nonsense. I read the line , “Islamists don’t hate us,” and saw once again that you twist everything to try to sound like you’re not the bigot you are. As for a “poorly written document,” go fuck y…ourself. You have so many comma splices, run-on sentences, and commas where they don’t belong, it’d take me 2 hours to clean up one of your paragraphs. You grasp at straws to try to prove you’re intellectually superior, which is always the sign that someone feels inferior. Perhaps your supieroity complex works well in the army, but in the real world, it’s obvious to those who truly are intellectually superior to you

I am well aware that I use an excessive number of commas, but I do that for the benefit of the reader of my documents.  I’d prefer to guide the reader to pause for inflection at specific points, so that the information as it is read is as close as possible to my intention. 

Polly  You encourage people to contact you directly because any lies you say here will quickly be refuted by someone with more knowledge. YOu didn’t mention anything about Abu Ghraib for which military people were jailed, or the renditions that t…he government carried out, where they tortured innocent people, sometimes to death because they were “suspects.” These people were grabbed from airports or streets, their families were never told, and they simply disappeared. I love how you pretend that the bombs that not only killed more than 100,000 innocent men, women, AND children but also destroyed their infrastructure

Polly You are not even close to as intelligent and knowledgeable as you think you are, but how can you know what you DON”T know. All that prompts you to write is a big fat ego that has thrived on pushing people around and killing innocent people… of another country and culture that you see as inferior, just as you show here you feel I’m inferior to you. You’re a disgusting human being. I can only imagine that you worked at Abu Grhraib prison, torturing innocent people to satisfy your feelings of inferiority

Polly The people I sent this whole conversation to are far more educated than you, by the way, and they concur with my assessment: you’re an egomaniac with feelings of inferiority, masked by a superiority complex, who has been brainwashed into a nationalist bully

Polly One last comment, the idea that the ends justify the means, Mr. Machiavelli, is pathetic. You try to argue that Iraq is better off now because the US went in and killed thousands of innocent people. Would you say that if China had come in… and removed George Bush? Not only do my friends and colleagues here agree with me in this argument, but my friends all over the world who received it do, including those in Egypt, Jordan, and Palestine. You think muslims have anything good to say about the US? You’d be wrong. Though they are certainly moderates, they think the war in Iraq is disgusting and they resent the American government for it, so stop trying to play up to them here, when you had no problem killing them. They see through your bullshit, just as I do.

Dann Ignorance is bliss.  I’ve thoroughly enjoyed our delightful verbal tennis match. Thank you for the weekend of entertainment.  My facebook page is facebook.com/Dannman and I encourage the vast number of your friends that you’ve sent a copy of this converation to to contact me and we can continue this education between the “genius” and the “arrogant fool”.  I wonder who is who though…

I wonder if I will hear from all of her “friends” about this… I bet neither one of them contact me…

Update:  about 30 minutes after I completed this blog post, I got a Facebook notification that she commented again.  Here’s her final statement.

Polly  I don’t wonder at all, and neither does anyone else who has read the full conversation. You’ve tried in every way to use the oldest argument fallacy, poisoning the well. You tried to insinuate that I am not a good writer because I used ca…pitol letters. You’ve ignored the FACTS and points that I made in almost every post, and now you try to play down my IQ because yours is inferior. You can’t argue anything because you’re so busy trying to be right to defend your pathetic ego that you don’t even see how week your actual argument is. Actually, your argument mirrors your profile pic…lol. Your other pics show that your as ugly on the outside as you are on the inside, but you put up the one “glamour shot” you have to hid the truth

Well, she’s got me there!  I’m not much to look at…  Now I REALLY feel bad about myself.  roflmao

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